Burnt to a Crisp

Using unsavory methods, threatening to do terrible things, faking it, twisting it, propaganda, lying—all of these things are fair in war. (Not in love, but yes, in war.) So, when two American Soldiers were accused of turning two dead Taliban bodies away from Mecca and burning them; it got my attention and probably yours.

I like the idea of letting the Taliban think we are burning bodies. I like the idea of adding things to the fire so that it smells like we are burning dead bodies. . I like the idea of showing the pictures of the burnt, dead bodies. I like all of it, right up to the time when we actually burn the bodies. Actually burning the dead bodies is a HUGE no-no.

We are a nation of laws. We have rules. We have a thing called the code of conduct, and the rules of land mine warfare and the Geneva Conventions. All of those things say that mutilating the enemy is wrong. All of them say that it is actually a crime.

It is very difficult to regulate, legislate or otherwise control the manner in which a human being kills another, be it in War or any other time. It is even more difficult to control soldiers fighting an enemy that does not share the same belief system, laws or concerns.

However, we, as Americans, are expected to do just that. It might not be fair but it is the law.

Our government will investigate and prosecute those responsible, if in fact one of the good guys went stupid and actually burned an enemy soldiers’ body. First let us make sure its true then, punish the guilty and move out.

This is an aberration and should not reflect on the entire American Military but like Abu Ghraib it will to some countries and of course the always "fail" New York Times.

Links to discussions on this topic:

WMD, BlackFive, Riehl World View

Comments

[Matt Hurley]

Colonel,

I'm with you on this one.

Just one question, though...do the Geneva Conventions apply to the terrorists?

The reason I ask is that I don't think that they do and I suspect that the terrorists would look at our application of them as a weakness to be exploited.

And I'm not saying that it is a weakness...actually, I think it is a strength. But you have to admit that this sort of thinking is what leads us to not do a lot of the things we could be doing to win this war.

[Erin]

Col. Hunt, I appreciate that you have at least held off to see if it is true, I have seen nothing to indicate it is and it sound's and looks like MSM have made it so.

[Chris Sears]

Col. Hunt,
Just saw you with Tony Snow and you brought up the other, other, other, important thing on this. What it would DO to a man..OUR men, our best and finest. Thank-you.
The politics, the image to the world, the crime or not crime in the world of Geneva Conventions and War Crimes, and then, finally, what about our own, what about their hearts?

[Walter E. Wallis]

Colonel, with all due respect, go fuck yourself. Dead bodies stink. Unless in your command there was a GRS specialist in every squad, you have no standing to object to what these men did to resolve a tactical problem.

[Col. Hunt]

Walter, thank you for you kind observartion, how are things in lu lu land?

[Rita]

From some "hints" from others, I heard the bodies were burned because they were out rotting in the sun for a few days. Is this correct? I thought they were burned because they were "decomposing", have no idea who is correct on this.

[Rita]

Here is comment I read on 2Slicks site from 2Slick:

Business as Usual

Just a quick passage from a recent Time Magazine article:

It was then that Lt. Nelson took the decision that could jeopardize his service career. "We decided to burn the bodies," one soldier recounts, "because they were bloated and they stank." News of this cremation may have remained on these scorching hills of southern Afghanistan, had the gruesome act not been recorded on film by an Australian photojournalist, Stephen Dupont. Instead, when the footage aired on Australian TV on Wednesday, it unleashed world outrage. A Pentagon spokesman described the incident as "repugnant" and said that the army was launching a criminal investigation into the alleged desecration of the corpses, which is in violation of the Geneva Convention on human rights.

I'll say this once- if the American media machine continues to drag our military through the mud with all of our "violations of the Geneva Convention," we will lose this war. That's not a guess on my part- it is a fact.

Nice job, Newsweek. Let's not talk about cutting the heads off of living human beings. Forget about blowing up dozens of young children as they attempt to collect candy from U.S. soldiers- that stuff just happens and so who cares, right?

Literally hundreds of U.S. soldiers have risked their own lives in order to save the lives of fellow soldiers, innocent civilians, and even enemy terrorists who were only minutes earlier trying to kill them- and you see fit to report...none of it. Nada. Zip. It's boooor-ing. So last century. But when U.S. troops decide to burn a couple of already-dead terrorists- stop the presses! It's almost as big a deal as when they put underwear on someone's head!

Muslims traditionally bury their dead, and as one Kabul cleric Mohammed Omar told newsmen, "The burning of these bodies is an offense against Muslims every where. Bodies are burned only in Hell."

That's a great point you make there, cleric guy- but where do people typically get their heads cut off? Is there a place in Hell for that? Did the Newsweek reporter ask you that question? When an American gets his/her head sawed off by one of your fellow faithful, is that an offense against Americans everywhere?

Al Jazeera does a swell job of making Americans out to be the "real" terrorists- but Newsweek and the rest of America's MSM are really giving them a run for their money. I have a challenge for somebody out there. I'd do it myself, but I'm just way too busy these days. Find out how many "Abu Ghraib-type" stories graced the front page of the New York Times, and then chalk up the number of times they fronted stories about American heroism and valor. I think the results will be stunning. Or not.

I'm not asking for flag-waving and apple pie.

I'm not seeking fame and glory for myself or anyone else.

I just think we'd better stop treating our own people worse than we treat head-chopping, baby-bombing terrorists. That's not so much to ask...

[TheLimboKid]

A big HOORAH for you, Rita.
It's dishearening to hear double-breasted-suit-wearing-career-men misrepresenting facts and history just to appease the national media machine.
These chunks of charcoal were terrorists. Not soldiers. They bore no allegiance to any country, and didn't fight to defend a flag. The Geneva convetion ought not apply.
But somebody has a book to sell, or needs a photo-op. So they dog pile their own brave soldiers, not acknowledging the scores of atrocities committed by our enemy. No, it's too convenient to point fingers at our own men (my brothers-in-arms); it's the surest way for cowards to garner praise from the mainstream media machine, and secure their next guest appearance on Hardball...

[Lisa]

Colonel....I thought you said that the Taliban and al Qaeda never signed onto the Geneva Conventions.. so if that's the case, why are we concerned with following the rules of the conventions?

They certainly don't follow the rules when it comes to the treatment of our soldiers and civilians.

I'm tired of our soldiers getting wounded and killed because they are fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.

You've said on numerous occasions we should just flatten some of these places....... how is that any different than what these soldiers did?

[Lisa]

Hey "Limpo"... don't make me have to get all red-neck up on you.

I don't always agree with the Colonel...in fact I rarely agree with the Colonel.. but one thing I do know... he calls things like he sees them. And he doesn't do a damn thing to "appease the national media machine" especially misrepresent facts or history.

And while I'm all over your ass... back off on the Colonel's suits... the man looks hot in his Armani suits...especially the dark one with his light blue tie... mmm..mmmm..mmmm.

Thanx for visiting Two Babes and ya'll come on back now...ya heah?

[Chris]

I am constantly suprised by the level of stupidity displayed by some. The post couldn't have been more clear:

First, make sure it is true...

It is an aberation...

Not fair, but the law...

Click on the link Burning the Taliban in the video clips box in the left hand sidebar and you will hear Colonel Hunt say that the reason these laws exisit and the reason we can't allow this to happen is because it damages our soldiers it destroys their humanity.

I am sick of the argument--well the terrorists did it first or they started it or they did worse stuff--it is like listening to a bunch of kids on the playground and it is a stupid argument. I hear all the time that these guys we are fighting are animals and subhuman--so let's use them as the standard by which we measure ourselves--real smart.

[Redhead Infidel]

In terrain that is a rocky wasteland, where it would be impossible to bury decomposing dead bodies deep enough to avoid disease; and since the Afghanis themselves didn't care enough to bury the Taliban men according to Muslim religious practices - I have to ask: who's give's a flyin' rat's ass how the bodies were disposed of, as long as they were gone? The Afghanis themselves DIDN'T CARE, and now Muslims are supposed to riot their idiot asses all over the world to protest this "evidence" of American atrocities?

As one commenter said on our site: "They are so dangerously inconsistent." Now that's a brilliantly succinct statement on the insanity that is Islam.

The day I hear about mainstream/moderate Muslims marching their inconsistent asses in the streets to protest beheadings, hangings, indiscriminate bombings of civilians, etc - then MAYBE I'll contemplate caring for a sec what idiot rules their "Religion of Peace" imposes upon them and the rest of the world.

Our soldiers are NOT dhimmis - though our media and politicans ARE. It's not wrong to Americans and the majority of the world elsewhere to cremate bodies - but now we're supposed to observe Muslim rituals in disposing of enemy dead in a war zone? Last time I checked, the Taliban weren't members of the Geneva Convention. And last time our soldiers checked, the Taliban didn't care overly much about their own dead - until the hoo-hah assholes got involved and demanded that the rest of the world care about those stanky, rotten bodies!

I'm goin' to war over this one, Colonel Hunt. If that LT and any of his NCOs are brought up on charges for this, I'm waging an offensive campaign (Pantano style). Our soldiers deserve better than that.

PS: Don't bother lecturing me on the importance of taking the high road, sir. I really. don't. care. I want the best soldiers in the world to be free to decimate our enemy so they can come home. And everytime our stellar troops are hamstrung by our own media, arm-chair generals, and politicians is one step closer to the dreaded Quagmire.

"...punish the guilty and move out" you say? Over my dead bloggin' body.

RedheadInfidel
fomer Army officer
Airborne!

[Lisa]

Chris:

I am sick of the argument--well the terrorists did it first or they started it or they did worse stuff--it is like listening to a bunch of kids on the playground and it is a stupid argument. I hear all the time that these guys we are fighting are animals and subhuman--so let's use them as the standard by which we measure ourselves--real smart.

ME:

Chris, you elitist liberalism is coming out there babe. The problem with your argument is that our soldiers are getting killed because every time they make a little headway in this fight against these murderous subhumans...the media reports on the tactics they are using and then politics gets involved and their hands wind up getting tied and they cant do their job...resulting in deaths of our soldiers which, of course, don't get the world wide attention that a couple of terrorists get.

Where is your support for our guys... this isn't Abu Graeb... this is on the battle field... they didn't burn these terrorists alive (although that would have been fine with me too).. they burned them to prevent disease.. you cant just let rotting bodies lay around where you are sleeping. That's put's our soldiers in danger.

And when there's a choice between our soldiers' lives and a terrorist... these idiotic rules go out the window as far as I'm concerned.

[Chris]

You aren't making sense at all Lisa--these guys were in no danger from the dead guys and their tactics so far as burning the bodies was one--didn't work. The enemy isn't stupid. There was no choice between soldiers lives and a terrorist. Nice try though...and how funny that you say this isn't Abu Grahib since you were in favor of that too...

I support the troops, you know that--nice trying to get me riled--but you know that whole when you wrestle with pigs saying more than me, you being from the south and all, thats my point here...

[Lisa]

I tell you what Chris.... you sleep around a couple of dead bodies for a while and see how sick you get.

The reason the tactic didn't work Chris was because this damn reporter was too interested in making a name for himself. Sometimes you have to do things a few times before you can flush out your enemy. Geeze...if things worked the very first time everytime, the war would be over by now.

Come on Chris... take off that elitist hat you're wearing this morning.

[Lisa]

And BTW... I don't wrestle pigs... I eat them.

[Chris]

You are too funny--I guess you didn't see the reporter defending the guys who did this--just another example of you guys blaming someone else for others bad behavior--typical

[Col. Hunt]

TheLimboKid:
You are missing the point, I do not care about the Taliban bodies, it is our guys who lose their humanity when they do this. The killing is bad enough, very difficult, but when you start burning bodies you start down a path from which there is no recovery, none.
Those who have done real killing in combat know of what I speak.
And by the way, it did not work the Taliban did not come out and fight and this was done in broad daylight infront of a camera crew...come on

[Col. Hunt]

Lisa: Thank you ma'am.

[Lisa]

Well as a matter of fact Chris, I did see the reporter defend our guys. I also heard him say that even his own countrymen wouldn't talk to him. Something that maybe our guys need to follow suit with. No more inbeds. That way our soldiers can do what they need to do to get the job done.. and come home sooner than later.

[Redhead Infidel]

Colonel Hunt said: "The killing is bad enough, very difficult, but when you start burning bodies you start down a path from which there is no recovery, none.
Those who have done real killing in combat know of what I speak."

Then, by that logic - which is going to wear more on the humanity and psyche of our soldiers: 1) daily living around bloated, oozing, decomposing corpses (plenty for nightmarish flashbacks there); or 2) burning them like they burn the shit in 55 gallon drums?

Assuming, of course, that they can't abandon their post to drag the bodies out into the desert where they would be picked apart by animals.

I don't think the LT made his decision in a vacuum. And our armchair quarterbacking it from our comfy, cozy existence isn't going to sit well with any of those troops on the ground. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to an Airborne officer ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! Something you don't seem willing to do, sir.

[Redhead Infidel]

BTW, here's some perspective:

U.S. Civilian Contractors: 4 Killed, 1 BURNED ALIVE By Sunni Muslims

See what their creepy, ghoulish little monster children are up to. Nothing like raising another generation of hardened, bloody psychopaths!

[Misha I]

With all due respect, Colonel, sir, you seem to have two separate events conflated here.

The bodies weren't burned to "smoke the Taliban out", they were burned because they were bloated, rotting and in dire need of disposal. I suppose we could've airdropped their carcasses on the ville, but somehow cremating them seems more humane, civilized and hygienic to me.

You end up with two stiffs after a firefight, you dispose of them as best you can.

Then, and only THEN did Psyops arrive on the scene and, as is their JOB, realized a golden opportunity to twist the truth a bit in order to rile up the turbans and get them to come out and fight. It didn't work, but that's not the point. The point is that they might have, they might just have gotten stupid enough as a result of Psyops pushing their buttons and, as a further result, have come out from hiding behind the skirts of their women. This, again, would be preferable to have to go in and risk killing civilians while making the cowardly rats dead. And, once more, that's what Psyops does. Mess with minds. It's kinda sorta the job description, wouldn't you say?

So please refrain from running with the MSM's less than honest (business as usual, maybe THEY should start working for Psyops? At least THAT way they'd be fighting for OUR side for once) twisting of the actual events.

They're trying to make it sound as if the corpses were burned to provoke the Talibs, and you're eating it hook, line and sinker.

But maybe you just.don't.get.it.

[Col. Hunt]

OK, if you really are Airborne and a combat vet, then let us remember that there was a camera crew there and this was all done in broad daylight and the psyops guy actually read the thing for the cameras....
As a leader, we protect our guys. The leaders here hurt their guys.

Burn the bodies? No. Bury sure. This did not help, it did not work, and you know that they are going to jail for this. That is the real waste. The leaders you claim were not in a vacum, and I mean up to the Battalion Commander, seldom pay the price for this kind of stuff. The trooper always does.

I am in favor of the troop not being put in this situation while still killing all the bad guys in the valley.

[Jason Coleman]

With all due respect Col. Hunt.

The reporters on the scene also admit that the two events are not necessarily related.

Firstly, the Airbone commander on the field made the descision to have the bodies burned for hygenic reasons. You may disagree sir, but you were not on the field. I would hope you stand behind the Airborne commanders descision on the field.

LATER, ONLY LATER did the PsyOps operatives arrive on the scene. They were tasked with pulling the Taliban holed up un Gonbaz out from their cover (they were using the villagers as human shields).

The PsyOps operatives chose to use the burned bodies as part of their operation. They DID NOT burn the bodies as part of a PsyOps plan. They arrived on the scene, surveyed the events and THEN, only THEN, well after the bodies were burned, did they decide to utilize this action as a part of the their larger PsyOps operation.

If you're unfamiliar with Datelines interview with Stephen Dupont (the photographer), I encourage you to listen to it. I have the relevant parts transcribed as well as the entire video at

http://www.jasoncoleman.com/BlogArchives/2005/10/so_whats_really.html

I hope you take the time to listen to the reporter that took the pictures.

You only seem to be taking the word of Martinkus (who did NOT take the pictures, but merely crafted a media hit piece on our military) I enocurage you too look at more information about Martinkus

http://www.jasoncoleman.com/BlogArchives/2005/10/martinkus_dupon.html

that makes it quite clear that he is not interested in reporting the facts, but rather taking separate events and connecting them together for a grander assault on our military and their tactics.

The PsyOps boys used "WORDS NOT BOMBS" to draw the enemy out. They took events and expanded them then broadcast them to the Taliban. This is their job and you sir seem to be criticising them for it.

I'll say it again, burning the bodies was NOT part of any PsyOps plan of action, the bodies were burned BEFORE any PsyOps plan was drawn up.

Please sir, you are well respected in the military and media community, don't tarnish that reputation by regurgitating untruths from a partisan reporter, examine the events fully and hopefully, you will re-evaluate your position.

While the links are mine, I think you'll find them much better sourced than information you seem to be drawing from.

Sincerly,

Jason F. Coleman